Nicole S. Turner (00:03):
You are listening to the Simply Instructional Coaching Podcast, a podcast for instructional coaches who want a simple plan with simple steps to get started coaching teachers. I’m your host Nicole, and I’m an elementary teacher turned instructional coach with a little bit of K-12 admin sprinkled in. Tune in for simple tips and strategies for what and how to coach teachers. Being an impactful instructional coach doesn’t have to be complicated. Let’s make it simple.
(00:37):
Hey, hey coaches. Welcome back to the Simply Instructional Coaching Podcast. This episode I am here with Steve Ventura, who is one of my favorite coaches and presenters. He is magnificent and awesome. He’s been at the Simply Coaching Summit for about the last four years, and he has brought it every single time. And so I’m so excited for you all to really kind of hear, learn a little bit more about Steve and kind of some of the things that he does. So Steve, welcome to the podcast.
Steve Ventura (01:11):
Yeah, Nicole, I’m both thrilled to be here. Thanks for having me. I just really want to thank you for all of your invitations for these things. You make me improve my practice every time I get a chance to work with you and your organization. So I am excited to be here and ready for a great podcast today.
Nicole S. Turner (01:30):
No problem. He said organization, yall. You know it’s normally just me, and so he got me at the organization level.
Steve Ventura (01:42):
Well, when I think of Simply Coaching, I think of a big three story building with a bunch of offices.
Nicole S. Turner (01:47):
Oh my gosh. Hey, is that the dream?
Steve Ventura (01:50):
You’re on the top floor.
Nicole S. Turner (01:51):
Is that the dream? Steve is giving us the vision. He is giving us the vision. All right. So before we dive into talking about some good old coaching stuff, Steve, can you just give us a little bit of background, kind of like who you are and kind of like your road, I guess, through education and coaching?
Steve Ventura (02:09):
Yeah, absolutely. It’s very humble. It’s simple. I mean, I started off as a physical education teacher, and I did that for about five years, three years or four years. And then I wanted to have a bigger sphere of impact with kids. I loved my PE, but I went back and got a degree in special education and then my master’s in administration. And as the years progressed, it wasn’t till towards the end of all of this work when I became principal and superintendent, that I started realizing that he had literally changed school to culture through transformational and instructional leadership, a combination of both. And so I kept reading and researching, and then by the time I was a superintendent, I started attending more conferences about, gosh, really collective efficacy, about collaboration, about providing people with the highest effect instructional strategies and coaching things that I could read.
(03:03):
And then I started presenting full-time in 2010, traveling around and consulting. I consulted alongside Professor John Hattie and Dr. Douglas Reeves. And John Hattie wrote the Forward to our book, which I’m really delighted. So it’s been a really great, amazing trip. It’s one of those trips where somebody had told you right when you graduated with your degree in PE that you’d be speaking to lots of people. And I was thinking, I don’t know that’s going to happen, but here it is. And so it’s just been completely personally and professionally rewarding, and they get to meet people like you, and this is what makes it all matter. So that that’s it. Then I started focusing on mostly leadership and collective efficacy.
Nicole S. Turner (03:46):
So tell me more about the content of that magnificent book that was just published last year, right? It was published last year?
Steve Ventura (03:53):
Yes. It’s funny, Nicole, I’ve had to learn something about PLCs and collaboration. Our book is called Achievement Teams, and I’ve been learning how to diminish just the data piece and more enhancing the relational trust and the rigorous collaborative discourse. So yes, we write about formative assessment because you need evidence before you can actually start evaluating your impact as a teacher. But we want people to know that that book is one chapter about formative assessment and data and eight other chapters about how to improve practice either through instructional strategies or dialogue or collaboration. And so I used to be just data, data like, oh, it’s got to be all data. And of course, what I recognized was that you can’t really measure somebody’s impact on a once or twice assigned assessment. There’s got to be more things that happen that are deeper and more reflective. And so the book is really about a four step process, Nicole. We don’t, Michelle and I, my wife co-authored the book with me. We don’t dispute any of the research that we read about professional learning communities. We’re not trying to say we have a better process. What we’re saying is there’s a gap between what the research says PLCs can do and the actual implementation. And so that’s what we write about. If PLCs are so powerful, how can we create some discipline collaboration to get them to where they actually need to be?
Nicole S. Turner (05:14):
Right. And that is such an awesome empowered thing because a lot of times we have the research, we have the data, but it falls from coming from that data component or reading it in the books to actually implementing it, and then something is in between. There is a disconnect at that particular point. And so that’s where the struggle becomes. And I love that your book talks about that implementation component, how to actually implement it and what it is that they have to do. All right, Steve, I am so excited for you to be at the Simply Coaching Summit. Tell me, what is your title of your session?
Steve Ventura (05:51):
So my summit session is called the Instructional Coaches Atlas, A Guide for Coaches and School Leaders.
Nicole S. Turner (05:58):
Oh my God, that is going to be so hot. Tell me more about what are you going to be talking about?
Steve Ventura (06:03):
Well, what I wanted to share in this is how can coaches create a comparative analysis coaching model? What does the central office think and value? What does the site value? And then how does that translate down to what coaches actually do? So it’s a really nice model that I’ll be introducing to them. And the other thing we’ll be talking about is how can we create a culture of evidence over opinion? So when coaches actually do coach, they have more evidence about what they would like to coach as opposed to just giving advice and helping somebody, like being a better consumer of listening and questioning, and then looking at what strategies would have the highest probability of advancing coaching relationships. And finally looking at some intensive interventions to increase student engagement. And so it’s a nice three part. It should be very engaging. I’m excited about it, and I think our attendees will enjoy it very much.
Nicole S. Turner (06:58):
Yes, I think so too. So really quick, let’s go back to talking about PLCs, right? Because that’s just some things that I love to talk about, professional learning communities. Tell me some things that, how you think that coaches can support PLCs right now. Like, we’re in the middle of a testing season, or we’re finishing up testing season when this podcast starts. So tell me more about how you think coaches can actually support PLCs.
Steve Ventura (07:26):
Absolutely. I mean, first of all, coaches don’t have to facilitate a PLC, but they should be at the PLC and really be there as a support person to help guide the conversation, to see if we’re really hitting the things we want. There’s two mind frames that I love from the visible learning research that I love coaches to replicate, and it’s to help teachers understand that when they’re meeting as a PLC, their fundamental task is to evaluate the effect of their teaching, not just using data and grading. And the other one is to help coaches, help teachers understand that when a teacher gives an assessment, not a test, Nicole, an assessment, that that assessment is more of a reflection of their effort than the students’ because they’re actually trying to assess their impact, not use it for grading. Now, summative assessments are grading, but formative assessments are designed to help teachers evaluate how much impact they’re having.
(08:21):
And coaches ought to be able to support teachers with the formative evaluation piece by helping teachers understand that the instruction they give can or cannot lead to great results on the formative assessments they receive. So those are some things that I’d really like coaches to take a look at. Plus, I like coaches just to evaluate a PLC and see if there’s any positive outcomes at the end of the meeting. You know, what I look for and what I train other coaches to look for is, the whole purpose of a PLC, Nicole, is to appropriate new knowledge, not maintain existing knowledge. And so we should not be just maintaining what we already know how to do, but we should be able to create things that we haven’t done. So we try to move away from the status quo and look at what else can we do that we haven’t tried. So we introduce a ton of instructional strategies for coaches to use, but we really think coaches ought to really challenge current thinking and practice and help people become a little more practical and pragmatic about their PLC time.
Nicole S. Turner (09:24):
Hey, hey coaches. I have a few questions for you. Are you struggling to get coaching cycles completed? Are you still trying to figure out what to coach? Are you confused about how to coach teachers? If you raised your hand and said yes to any of these questions, I want to invite you to join me and more than a hundred instructional coaches inside the Simply Coaching Hub. The Simply Coaching Hub is a professional development resource and community hub that will provide you with practical, relatable, and actionable professional development for new and seasoned instructional coaches. The hub is specifically for instructional coaches created by me, an instructional coach. In the hub, we focus on providing specific pathways that meet you where you are in your coaching journey. Differentiation is important when we work with students and even when we coach teachers. Shouldn’t it be important when it comes to your growth as a coach too?
(10:22):
Absolutely. And that’s why when you join the Hub, you will be prescribed a coaching pathway that will address your specific needs. The Hub also provides a simple framework for you to implement right away. It’s time you start coaching with confidence. And most importantly, the hub is a community. With over a hundred instructional coaches from all over the world, you will connect with someone who can support you through any situation you may be dealing with. And the best part is you have a coach walking side by side to support you in your journey. It’s time to elevate your instructional coaching with the Simply Coaching Hub. Check out www.simplycoachinghub.com to learn more. I will see you in the hub.
(11:14):
So quick question, Steve. So as, okay, I’m a new coach and I am starting to walk into this world of P L C that I’ve always just attended as a teacher, and so I’m making that transition. What would be some good pointers on how a coach can, how do I say, map out their first PLC? What would be some of your key points or things that they need to include in that PLC? Like their very first one?
Steve Ventura (11:45):
Yeah, so it depends, but let’s say the PLC is focused on a specific learning target. So the coach would help the team decide, well, what do we want to assess? What do we want to see if kids can or cannot do well and deeply? And so normally would start up with a learning target and then helping the team devise some sort of formative evaluation or assessment to assess that target. And then the coach can help with the team to analyze the results and to support that team with research based instructional strategies. But let’s say, Nicole, it’s not a data-driven meeting. Maybe it’s just the first time, let’s get our norms done. I want coaches to think about the difference between questions and questioning. And questioning is what coaches ought to be doing, not just like, well, did you finish? Did you enter your data? Questioning is like, what do you think we can do differently after we finish this first PLC? Just some really deep thinking. And so I’ve just now discovered sometimes I ask too many questions, but I don’t focus on questioning. And I think that’s where coaches can go, and I think that’s in their playbook already. Don’t you think coaches need to learn questioning?
Nicole S. Turner (12:54):
Well, yes, I think that it should be in the playbook. And I love what you just said, more of that open-ended questions versus those close ended questions, right?
Steve Ventura (13:03):
That’s exactly it.
Nicole S. Turner (13:04):
So that keeps those open-ended questions, keeps the conversation going, and it keeps, like you said, them thinking. So I think that having or asking tons of questions in the beginning is kind of how you start to form what that PLC will look like, right? Yeah.
Steve Ventura (13:21):
Again, the questions that I’m thinking of is, so what strengths and gaps do we notice about the results we’re getting with kids? What’s worth replicating? What’s worth putting in time out? Who are we teaching effectively and who still needs more help? I mean, these are some really open-ended questions and you can’t say yes or no.
Nicole S. Turner (13:42):
Right? And it really makes you to start to think about that. One thing in PLCs. Steve, what are your thoughts about bringing in student works with from different classrooms inside of the PLC?
Steve Ventura (13:56):
Completely love it. And here’s why. Because I think sometimes PLCs could be focused on anonymously scoring student work. In other words, we bring a couple samples of papers from each teacher’s classroom, but the names are taken off. But the teachers have scored those papers and they give that paper and exchange it to another person on the PLC and say, what would you give the student? Well, the person say, you and I were doing this and we were collaboratively scoring anonymous student work, and you gave me a work sample from your class. I don’t know the student’s name. I don’t know what you give them, but what we have in common is the same scoring guide. Now, you may have given that student a four, I might give that student a two, and now we have to understand why we can’t agree on what proficiency means.
Nicole S. Turner (14:39):
Yes.
Steve Ventura (14:39):
And so I really love student work samples, especially because it eliminates so much subjectivity from the way we score work, and it’s more of an objective approach. So in fact, all of the work we do with the teams, Nicole, is part of it is bringing either student work samples or samples of the assessments that the students have taken. It’s a powerful strategy. And I’m glad you got that question. It was a good one.
Nicole S. Turner (15:05):
Yes, I really do. I really love that. I know that I attended one of your sessions, I don’t know if it was maybe two years ago where you really dug into data and you start talking about student work. And so I wanted to make sure that I got the listeners to hear that component directly from you about that. All right. So I have another question. What do the most effective coaches do? What are some of the things that you could kind of list or label that effective instructional coaches actually do? What are some of the tasks that they do?
Steve Ventura (15:36):
Well, I love, just in terms of either PLCs or just straight on coaching. I mean, I love how coaches can reduce the level of anxiety that some teachers feel if they need coaching. And there’s so many options that I see with impact cycles where coaches could approach teachers and say, listen, I have three options for you. Would you like me to come in and watch you teach a lesson and then we can talk about it? Or would you like you and I to actually co-teach a lesson and talk about it? Or would you like me to teach a lesson in your class? And then we can talk about it? And I think giving teachers a choice, a menu about how they want to jump into the coaching arena is one of the best things we can do. And I love for, my favorite is when a teacher and a coach get together and co-teach a lesson. There’s so much to talk about and so much to evaluate, and that way the coach can actually model some of the very best instructional behaviors that matter. I mean, I always say, when you get a chance to look at somebody else teach and they do it successfully, that’s called a vicarious, a vicarious experienc, Nicole. If I see somebody do something really well, I want to replicate that strategy,
Nicole S. Turner (16:47):
Right. Right.
Steve Ventura (16:47):
And if I do something really well, that’s a master experience, and it gives me confidence to continue to be a better professional through per persistence and determination. So when coaches work with teachers and they either model or observe, there’s still this ability to help teachers understand that the best way that you can become a more proficient teacher is to be able to receive feedback and even talk about where you think your own areas of improvement are, which I think is super powerful.
Nicole S. Turner (17:16):
Yes, I absolutely love that. All right. So Steve, give me two things of advice or two pieces of advice for coaches. What are the two things that you would want to leave with coaches?
Steve Ventura (17:30):
Well, I think first thing is wanting to establish an amazing relationship with a coach where it is really based on relational trust. Whoever they’re working with, they look forward to it, they want it. I mean, I didn’t have an instructional coach when I was going through teaching, Nicole. I mean, it wasn’t even really a trend at that time. Here, I want teachers to actually appreciate this amazing support service that they can get. So a first thing I think is establishing strong relationships. But actually with coaches, there are three things, integrity, consistency, and ability. And I think coaches should be demonstrating that all day long from bell to bell. So the teachers they coach know that they have integrity, that these coaches have ability, and they’re very consistent. They’ll never leave you hanging. They’re your safety net. They’re there to support you.
Nicole S. Turner (18:15):
Oh, that is that, I could not have said that better. I truly appreciate all that you have done or that you do, you currently do for instructional coaches. And I know that you are at the ASCD conference, right? And you did the pre-conference this year, right? And I know that you’re out there and that people can actually contact you if they want to bring you to their schools and to their districts. And so below in our show notes, guys, make sure that you check out. I will link out to Steve’s website and his book and all of the work that he is out here doing with the coaches, just in case you want to tap in into some of his resources.
(18:56):
Well, thank you Steve, so much for being on the podcast. And I can’t wait for you to be at the Simply Coaching Summit for everyone to kind of see your session. It is live on day two, so on July 11th at 3:00 PM Eastern, you could join us live and you’ll be able to ask Steve all the questions that I didn’t get a chance to ask today, and we’ll dive deep into that content. So I hope you guys have an awesome day, and I’ll see you in the next episode. Thanks, Steve.
Steve Ventura (19:27):
Thanks for everything, Nicole.
Nicole S. Turner (19:29):
No problem. Happy coaching y’all.
(19:36):
Thanks for listening to the Simply Instructional Coaching Podcast. If you’ve enjoyed this episode and you’d like to help support the podcast, please share it with other coaches and teacher leaders, post about it on social media, and leave a rating or review. To catch all the latest for me, you can follow me on Instagram @SimplyCoachingandTeaching_ and on Twitter @coachandteach. Thanks again and I’ll see you in the next episode. Happy Coaching.
